The Myth of Reinvention

Introduction

In Episode 4 of The Second Half of Life Studio, Minette and Brad go deep into the personal aspects of what "Reinvention" means in their lives at this stage and why it might not be the right terminology. We both see the importance of actually doing the work to uncover who we really are instead of the running away from it that reinvention implies.

"Reinvention" is the idea that when our old life no longer fits, we need to create a new version of ourselves to fit the next chapter.
The counterpoint is "What if the task isn’t to invent a new self, but to uncover, reclaim, integrate, and more fully express the self that has been there all along?"

We explore the following five myths related to reinvention in midlife:

1. Myth: Midlife means starting over.
2. Myth: I need to figure out who I want to become.
3. Myth: My old identity no longer fits, so I need a new one.
4. Myth: Growth means adding more.
5. Myth: The exciting part of my story requires becoming someone different.
   

Key Points

• Midlife doesn’t require reinventing yourself. It can be an opportunity to reclaim and more fully express who you already are.
• Roles aren’t the same as identity. When careers, parenting, and other defining roles change, we have an opportunity to explore who we are underneath them.
• Growth isn’t always about adding more. The second half of life can also mean releasing old expectations, reclaiming neglected parts of ourselves, and making room for what matters now.

Impromptu Poll

In our show poll question What does personal "Reinvention" mean for you?,

• A) Any way to escape whatever I am now
• B) I slept on the other side of the bed
• C) I’m moving to Spain, leaving it all behind

the bulk of people in the chat wanted to run away to Spain.

Questions/Journaling Prompts from the Show that You can Use for Yourself

• What does the word “reinvention” imply to you—and why does it appeal to people so much? Is there something seductive about the idea of getting a clean slate?
• Have we actually reinvented ourselves, or does it only look that way from the outside? Looking back at major changes in career, creativity, relationships or lifestyle, what threads were there all along?
• What's the difference between reinvention and reclamation? What are we reclaiming that may have been lost, neglected, silenced or postponed?
• How much of the identity we build in the first half of life comes from genuine choice, and how much comes from expectation?
• What happens when a role that has defined you disappears? Who are you when you're no longer raising children, climbing the career ladder, caring for someone, or doing the work that once gave you status?
• Why are we so uncomfortable with the period between identities? Why do we rush to answer “What's next?” instead of allowing ourselves some time not to know?
• What have we each brought back into our lives that isn't actually new? Creativity, music, writing, art, play, spirituality, curiosity, travel, friendship—what has returned rather than appeared for the first time?
• What are we more willing to let go of now?
• What do we want more of—not because we should, but because it makes us feel more alive? This shifts the conversation from improvement to aliveness.
• How do we tell the difference between an authentic desire for change and the old belief that we're still not enough? Is the change coming from curiosity and longing—or self-rejection?
• What does success mean now compared with twenty or thirty years ago? Have our measures changed from achievement and accumulation toward meaning, contribution, time, relationships, creativity or freedom?
• What parts of ourselves have become stronger with age rather than diminished?
• What role does creativity play in this process?
• What if the second half of life is less about becoming and more about expressing?
• If you weren't trying to reinvent yourself, what would you do differently with the next chapter? What would you keep? What would you release? What would you reclaim? What would you finally give more room?
  

Youtube Video

Transcript

Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi0uC-rlTV8
    
Video language: en
    
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[00:21] : Heat. Hey, Heat.
[00:47] : Hey, hey, hey.
[01:06] : Heat. Heat.
[01:24] : Oh, we're getting ready. Let's see.
[01:33] : Hey, there we are.
[01:36] : Are you Is your mic working?
[01:38] : >> I don't know. Is my mic working?
[01:39] : >> I think it's working. Welcome everybody.
[01:43] : Uh, where's my slides? Here we go.
[01:49] : Oh, one too fast. Okay. Uh, welcome to
[01:52] : the second half of Life Studio, a show
[01:55] : where we talk about midlife, retirement,
[01:57] : 50 plus issues, and creativity for both
[01:59] : men and women. I'm Brad Dobson, the
[02:02] : mostly behindthe-scenes half of our
[02:04] : company, Mindful Patterns. And of
[02:06] : course, you know Manette Ryarden is the
[02:07] : face of this YouTube channel and as a
[02:09] : creative guide for women in the second
[02:11] : half of life.
[02:12] : Today's topic is about the myth of
[02:15] : reinvention.
[02:17] : We hope you enjoy the show today. Don't
[02:18] : forget to hit those like and subscribe
[02:20] : buttons.
[02:21] : >> Yeah, welcome everyone. Uh super excited
[02:24] : about this topic. It's something that's
[02:26] : been on my mind and I convinced Brad to
[02:28] : talk about, right, read about, think
[02:31] : about over the last few months. And a a
[02:35] : couple of years ago when I was just
[02:37] : starting this business, I posted on my
[02:40] : Facebook page about the word
[02:42] : reinvention, whether people liked it or
[02:44] : not. And it was fascinating to see the
[02:48] : responses that I got. And people were so
[02:52] : against the word reinvention, which of
[02:55] : course sent me down an introspective
[02:58] : rabbit hole of, well, what does this
[03:00] : word really mean? and what is the
[03:03] : resistance to it. So, we're going to
[03:05] : talk about the myth of reinvention
[03:07] : today. Cool stuff.
[03:08] : >> And why we're um why we think this is
[03:12] : really important to bring to you guys.
[03:13] : >> Good stuff. Okay. Couple quick things.
[03:17] : Uh today's sponsor is the Creative
[03:19] : Alchemy Certification, which is
[03:21] : Manette's new flagship certification for
[03:24] : all who want to use expressive arts in
[03:27] : their work with others.
[03:29] : >> Hello from the Netherlands. Welcome.
[03:30] : Welcome. Yeah, I'm super excited about
[03:33] : this certification program. It has been
[03:36] : about five years in the making and uh
[03:39] : I'm thrilled to be launching it. It's
[03:41] : starting to fill up pretty quickly. We
[03:43] : only have three spaces available. So, if
[03:47] : you're interested in learning how to use
[03:49] : expressive arts in your existing work
[03:52] : with others or looking perhaps to shift
[03:55] : your career focus in the second half of
[03:58] : life, I'd love to chat with you and
[04:00] : we'll make sure that that direct link is
[04:03] : in the show notes.
[04:04] : >> Yeah, I put it in the description. Good
[04:06] : stuff. Uh, moving right on. Okay, we're
[04:10] : going to do a couple things today. One,
[04:14] : a quick one. We're going to go over
[04:16] : books that we're reading and then
[04:17] : >> actually it's books Brad's reading.
[04:18] : >> Yeah. Right. And then uh I can tell
[04:21] : Manette's eager to get on to the main
[04:23] : conversation. So
[04:24] : >> do we want to do the
[04:26] : >> Let's just do this real quick. Yeah.
[04:28] : >> Yeah. So um I bought this one. How to
[04:31] : try again? And it's from by Steve Cam,
[04:35] : the founder of Nerd Fitness, which I'd
[04:38] : heard about I guess on the side. And
[04:40] : I'll just read you the notes that I
[04:41] : wrote after um I read it. I said, 'I
[04:45] : feel called out. [laughter]
[04:46] : It's a great book. Uh, he wants you to
[04:49] : let go of so much control and outcome
[04:51] : based thinking and living. Focus on
[04:54] : pausing and making today a good day. And
[04:57] : then he has a framework about uh
[05:00] : pausing, accepting change
[05:03] : uh accepting change and then try and
[05:06] : testing um called this packed framework.
[05:09] : So, excellent book uh well worth the
[05:11] : read, easy read. The second one uh
[05:14] : Manette had already read and she said,
[05:16] : "Well, we're going to read it for this
[05:17] : episode." And so then I started and it's
[05:20] : it's uh
[05:21] : >> deep.
[05:21] : >> It's very deep and very thoughtful,
[05:23] : >> very yian psychology based.
[05:26] : >> Yeah, I'm about a quarter of the way
[05:27] : through it. Um and it's not a slog, but
[05:31] : um it definitely needs your attention.
[05:34] : Um, super neat stuff and it actually um
[05:38] : helps transition into our main topic
[05:40] : really well because um I'm I'm not a I'm
[05:45] : not a Yian psychoanalyst like this guy
[05:47] : and Manette's a lot closer to that. But
[05:50] : he's asking us to do the work to return
[05:52] : our lives to our natural soul. What he
[05:55] : calls kind of a big S self and turn away
[05:59] : from so much of the little little S
[06:02] : self, the ego and and the patterns that
[06:04] : are evolved from childhood. And um
[06:07] : >> you said it was a lot like the second
[06:09] : mountain book, just a different
[06:11] : perspective, which we talked about in
[06:12] : the very first episode
[06:14] : >> in a big way. And um and so that that uh
[06:17] : different viewpoint
[06:19] : I think really transitions well into um
[06:23] : into what we're going to talk about
[06:24] : today is this thing about reinvention or
[06:27] : the myth of reinvention. Um because in
[06:31] : his book he's
[06:33] : very much talking about how it's
[06:36] : necessary to go back to the beginning
[06:37] : and and find who we really are. Um and I
[06:41] : think that's that's a lot about what
[06:43] : we're going to talk about. It is. Yeah.
[06:45] : But before we do that, let's do your
[06:46] : cheeky poll.
[06:47] : >> Oh, yeah. Okay. So, chat, folks, in the
[06:49] : chat, I have a cheeky poll here. So,
[06:53] : just real quick in the chat, A, B, or C,
[06:56] : what does personal reinvention mean for
[06:59] : you? A, any way to escape whatever I am
[07:03] : now? B, I slept on the other side of the
[07:06] : bed. And C, I'm moving to Spain and
[07:09] : leaving it all behind,
[07:11] : >> which one of our friends just did.
[07:13] : >> Yeah. So where do you stand when when
[07:15] : you think about personal quote
[07:17] : reinvention quote?
[07:18] : >> It's so interesting. So I was away for
[07:22] : 10 days just coming back. We moved my
[07:26] : dad to a new place and the first night
[07:29] : he didn't sleep and I'm like why? And he
[07:32] : said I heard noise outside.
[07:35] : And um great we'll get the the link to
[07:39] : the certification is in the description
[07:42] : of the video. So, we'll get that. Make
[07:43] : sure we get that to you. Yeah, for sure.
[07:46] : >> And um he said one, it was noisy
[07:49] : outside, but also he said, "I'm sleeping
[07:51] : on the other side of the bed."
[07:53] : >> And I never thought about like how
[07:55] : something that small can really
[07:58] : interrupt our regular patterns. Oh, I
[08:00] : love how many C's there are. Let's do
[08:03] : it.
[08:03] : >> I was going to I was going to say for
[08:05] : for B like I picked a different drink at
[08:08] : Starbucks, [laughter] but it's it's
[08:09] : roughly the same thing. Well, it's it's
[08:11] : the pumpkin spice season, so everyone's
[08:14] : picking a a drink of the season.
[08:16] : >> That's your personal reinvention is
[08:18] : >> No, it's not mine. I am not a pumpkin
[08:20] : spice girl.
[08:21] : >> Yeah,
[08:21] : >> I am in my muffins, but not in my
[08:23] : coffee. [laughter]
[08:25] : >> We should do a whole show about our
[08:27] : passion for dark black coffee.
[08:29] : >> That's right. Strong French roast is the
[08:32] : way to go.
[08:34] : >> So, we have a few A's
[08:36] : >> and mostly C's so far.
[08:37] : >> Mostly C's. Interesting. So ready to
[08:40] : move to Spain or wherever and leave it
[08:43] : all behind.
[08:43] : >> Yeah, that's right.
[08:44] : >> Beautiful.
[08:46] : >> All of the above.
[08:47] : >> None of the above.
[08:48] : >> Yeah. [laughter] All of the above. None
[08:49] : of the above. For sure. Are you going to
[08:51] : make us bigger on this?
[08:52] : >> Yeah, that's a good plan.
[08:54] : >> So,
[08:56] : now we're going to get into everybody
[08:57] : can see us. Hi, everybody.
[08:58] : >> The actual main part of things. And I
[09:01] : think um
[09:02] : >> Manette's gonna gonna go here for a
[09:04] : little bit, but I thought it was neat to
[09:07] : put that poll about reinvention first
[09:10] : because I feel like this talk and and
[09:14] : the questions he's going to ask are
[09:15] : going to tear that down completely.
[09:18] : >> For sure. And uh Brad brings the humor
[09:21] : wherever he goes, too, right? So he
[09:23] : likes to to keep the the the cheeky
[09:26] : sense of humor in there for sure. But I
[09:29] : wanted Yes. to strong dark coffee.
[09:31] : Woohoo. We are not alone in this plan
[09:34] : for sure. So I want to first define what
[09:38] : do we mean today when we're talking
[09:40] : about reinvention.
[09:42] : And to me, reinvention is the idea that
[09:45] : somehow our old life, former life,
[09:49] : pre-retirement life no longer fits. And
[09:52] : that we have to create an entirely new
[09:55] : version of ourselves in order to fit
[09:58] : into this next chapter. And I believe
[10:00] : there's something fundamentally wrong
[10:03] : and flawed about that. And I was doing
[10:05] : some research this morning and poking
[10:07] : around YouTube for what other people are
[10:09] : saying and found lots of people that
[10:11] : agreed with me. And we live in this
[10:14] : culture of reinvention. Think about what
[10:16] : happens every year in January with New
[10:20] : Year's resolutions.
[10:21] : >> Sure. Sure.
[10:22] : >> It is a mega billiondoll industry of
[10:26] : people selling you opportunities to make
[10:29] : yourself better. The implication being
[10:32] : that you're not enough as you are. right
[10:34] : now. And so I want to pose the question
[10:38] : today of what if the task isn't about
[10:41] : inventing a new self, but about
[10:44] : uncovering, reclaiming, integrating, and
[10:48] : more fully expressing the self that has
[10:50] : been there all along. and our core self
[10:54] : or our big S self like uh James talks
[10:57] : about in James Hollis talks about in uh
[11:00] : finding meaning in the second half of
[11:02] : life
[11:03] : >> is this idea of you know we finally come
[11:05] : into our soul work no longer trying to
[11:09] : fit into a career maybe we're at the top
[11:12] : of our career and this is not about
[11:15] : being retired at all I feel like we're
[11:17] : just both in such a different place and
[11:20] : it took us a long time to get here. And
[11:23] : for me, the biggest transformation
[11:26] : came when I realized that it wasn't
[11:29] : about reinventing myself. It was about
[11:32] : looking across my life and pulling the
[11:34] : threads and pieces together that make me
[11:37] : feel more complete, whole, and
[11:40] : integrated. Like I'm not leaving
[11:42] : anything out that might have gotten left
[11:44] : out over time.
[11:46] : >> Yeah. And I think uh especially James
[11:48] : Hollis in that book we mentioned,
[11:50] : >> he's equating that to he calls that
[11:53] : home.
[11:54] : >> Yeah.
[11:54] : >> Um coming home to yourself
[11:56] : >> or your soul. Um he uses those words and
[11:59] : obviously they're loaded for everybody.
[12:01] : I don't I don't profess to know what
[12:04] : soul means, but it's a good definition,
[12:05] : I think, is is is that those things that
[12:09] : uh that aren't that are buried or maybe
[12:13] : buried um but all those things that make
[12:16] : us up that aren't just sort of this
[12:19] : habituation of societal norms and things
[12:22] : like that over the years.
[12:24] : >> Yeah, for sure.
[12:24] : >> The layers of crap. [laughter]
[12:26] : >> Yeah. And and the word I've been playing
[12:28] : with because I'm seeing a lot of people
[12:30] : talking about becoming yourself, right?
[12:32] : And everyone wants to be the most
[12:34] : authentic version of themsel. For me,
[12:36] : it's a a moment an opportunity for
[12:39] : reclaiming who we've always been and
[12:42] : really settling inside of that. So, I'm
[12:45] : going to share five myths of reinvention
[12:48] : that are pretty common. And then Brad
[12:50] : and I are gonna talk about some of the
[12:53] : ways that reinvention has showed up or
[12:55] : not in our lives. And um we don't know
[12:58] : each other's answers to the questions.
[13:00] : So [laughter] we'll be interesting to
[13:02] : see where we go. But one of the things
[13:04] : the the myth of reinvention whether
[13:06] : you're in midlife or later in the second
[13:08] : half of life is that we have to start
[13:10] : over. Well, we can't actually start
[13:13] : over, right? And maybe you can talk
[13:16] : about that idea. you know, we weren't
[13:18] : invented in the first place.
[13:21] : >> Yeah. Yeah. I was going to bring that up
[13:22] : later. It's interesting. Um, people talk
[13:25] : about reinvention and there wasn't ever
[13:28] : an invention in the first place. So,
[13:30] : when you talk about reinvention, it's
[13:32] : kind of it's kind of false. Yeah. From
[13:35] : the start,
[13:35] : >> like a misnomer from the get-go.
[13:37] : >> Right. Right. Right. Right. It was it
[13:40] : was
[13:40] : >> I keep getting this picture of like the
[13:41] : the goth kid who decides to [laughter]
[13:44] : today I'm going to be goth and then the
[13:46] : next day I'm metal kid today
[13:48] : >> or I'm I started listening to this great
[13:51] : book called Vital Spark which has a lot
[13:53] : about union psychology and dreams and uh
[13:56] : fairy tales in it like right up my alley
[13:59] : and then um she was talking about the
[14:02] : movie Exmachina
[14:03] : >> right and there's one scene in the movie
[14:06] : where one of the the robots goes and
[14:09] : like basically reinvents herself. You
[14:12] : know, she gets her arm chopped off and
[14:14] : she has to get a new arm and new skin
[14:16] : and you know, it's like we don't get to
[14:18] : do that. We don't literally get to take
[14:20] : parts of ourselves off. They're always
[14:22] : [snorts] a part of us. We can let go of
[14:25] : habits, right? We can let go of beliefs
[14:28] : and old stories. We can let go of the
[14:31] : things that we were taught as well. So,
[14:34] : that's myth number one. Myth number two
[14:36] : is I have to figure out in quotes who I
[14:39] : want to become next, right? As opposed
[14:42] : to settling into who we are, there's
[14:44] : this implication with reinvention that
[14:46] : we're not enough, right? And that sense
[14:49] : of comparing ourselves to what? To who?
[14:52] : I saw I stumbled across a YouTube video
[14:54] : of a beautiful woman that had been some
[14:57] : fashion influencer for her life who's
[15:00] : turning 80 and she was having a
[15:01] : conversation with a 40-year-old and
[15:03] : looking at those perspectives of who are
[15:06] : we and how we can begin again with a new
[15:11] : idea but it doesn't require us to start
[15:14] : over completely or to have it all
[15:17] : figured out before we start down a new
[15:19] : path. Myth number three, my old identity
[15:23] : no longer fits. I need a new one. This
[15:25] : we're going to talk a lot about identity
[15:27] : and roles a little bit later. And that
[15:30] : growth means adding more. Like we think
[15:33] : about a tree growing and it's putting
[15:36] : out uh branches and leaves and fruit or
[15:40] : seeds. It's growing roots down. So
[15:44] : there's a visual aspect of it feels like
[15:46] : it's adding more, but it's actually just
[15:48] : becoming more of itself. And sometimes
[15:52] : it's about letting go rather than
[15:55] : increasing. Right.
[15:57] : >> Yeah. And I think that the interesting
[15:58] : thing there is it's a little mistaken to
[16:01] : equate identity with all of the croft
[16:05] : that you've built up around the roles
[16:07] : that you play. Maybe
[16:08] : >> croft
[16:09] : >> croft
[16:10] : >> all the garbage that you've built up
[16:11] : around. So, I've built this identity
[16:13] : that I'm I'm career Brad and I'm dad
[16:16] : Brad and I'm Iron Man Brad and I'm a
[16:18] : this and
[16:19] : >> husband husband Brad.
[16:20] : >> Yeah, husband Brad. That one, too. Um
[16:23] : >> and but that's not actually my identity.
[16:26] : >> Yeah.
[16:26] : >> Those are all of the the things that
[16:28] : surround the actual me.
[16:30] : >> They're roles and labels. Right. Right.
[16:32] : And and there are things that we've
[16:33] : done, but it has nothing to do who we're
[16:35] : being. And then the final part is, you
[16:38] : know, I have to become someone different
[16:40] : to actually have an exciting life,
[16:43] : >> right? And so this is a fun one to
[16:45] : explore.
[16:45] : >> That's the folks that are moving to
[16:47] : Spain. [laughter]
[16:48] : Just want to say that.
[16:50] : >> Yeah. Um, aren't we moving to Spain?
[16:53] : >> No. [laughter and gasps]
[16:55] : >> Yeah. I thought we were, but maybe not.
[16:57] : So, I'd love to hear from you to get us
[17:00] : going. When you think about the word
[17:03] : reinvention, what does that word mean to
[17:05] : you? All right, I'm reinventing myself.
[17:08] : I put on my Superman glasses here.
[17:10] : [laughter]
[17:12] : >> Are you Superman with the glasses on?
[17:15] : >> Yeah, actually Superman always. Um,
[17:18] : [laughter]
[17:20] : what is the We're going with this first
[17:22] : question.
[17:22] : >> Yeah. What does the word reinvention
[17:23] : mean to you?
[17:24] : >> Right. Sorry. Oh, I've got the net hairs
[17:28] : on me.
[17:30] : Um I wrote reinvention implies that we
[17:33] : invented the first version of ourselves
[17:35] : which is incorrect. We have to come to
[17:38] : terms that we came out as this substrate
[17:40] : that was shaped by our experiences that
[17:43] : were mostly out of our control and that
[17:46] : we can't escape that there's a reality
[17:48] : there. Um and the unconscious choices
[17:51] : made by our psyche without a lot of work
[17:53] : and acceptance. So people think that
[17:57] : reinvention is a way to escape that
[18:00] : work,
[18:01] : but you don't get to. I mean, you could
[18:03] : keep punting till the end of life and
[18:06] : never actually do the work, but you're
[18:09] : never really going to. There is no
[18:11] : reinvention.
[18:12] : There's just doing the work to get to um
[18:16] : that big ass self, I think.
[18:18] : >> Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
[18:20] : >> So, that was that was what I wrote.
[18:21] : >> No, I love that. And I think it goes
[18:23] : back to that idea of, you know, I'm not
[18:28] : I may be letting go of ideas. I may be
[18:30] : letting go of identities, beliefs, and
[18:32] : stories, but at the core, I stay the
[18:35] : same. Becoming a stronger version of
[18:38] : oursel is a great way to look at it,
[18:40] : Ivonne. And yes, we have to release fear
[18:43] : of things that are new. exploring other
[18:46] : aspects of self. All great definitions,
[18:48] : right? That are and ex exploration,
[18:52] : growth, integration, self-discovery. For
[18:56] : me, these are all things that we do to
[18:58] : keep growing and expanding and becoming
[19:01] : more fully and wholly ourselves that
[19:03] : have nothing to do with starting all
[19:05] : over again. We have to start where we
[19:07] : are.
[19:07] : >> That's right. And and I like to think we
[19:10] : want to do them in the context of that
[19:12] : big S self, that soul. Yeah,
[19:14] : >> that uh was actually there um very early
[19:19] : on before it was uh beaten down by
[19:22] : middle school and uh the things people
[19:26] : said and the instructions from our
[19:28] : parents and those types of things.
[19:30] : >> Yeah, for sure. And Nette, I love that
[19:32] : you shared, you know, I'm still deciding
[19:34] : what that means and is it even important
[19:36] : at this stage, right? It's such a a
[19:38] : great question, Nette. Right up there
[19:40] : with, you know, letting go of trying to
[19:43] : find our purpose, right, is another one.
[19:45] : We could do could do a whole myth um
[19:48] : buster session on finding purpose as
[19:51] : well.
[19:52] : >> So, do you think you've ever reinvented
[19:55] : yourself?
[19:56] : >> Would you have looked at it that way or
[20:00] : >> I think I pro Are we on the next? Yeah,
[20:04] : >> I I kind of wrote different versions of
[20:05] : the question, so I'm trying to keep it
[20:07] : keeping track. Um I think I probably
[20:10] : thought I was reinventing myself for
[20:12] : sure.
[20:12] : >> But I for the most part,
[20:15] : >> um I think I was always
[20:18] : reinforcing strengths that I already
[20:21] : had.
[20:21] : >> Yeah. Um,
[20:24] : and but there's still
[20:27] : lots of um parts of my character that I
[20:30] : haven't gotten back to, I think. So,
[20:33] : >> yeah, it's a good way to look at it. So,
[20:35] : when I look back at my own personal
[20:38] : education and then career, if you can
[20:42] : call it that, right? You know, it could
[20:44] : look from the outside like it's been a
[20:46] : story of reinvention. About every 8 to
[20:49] : 10 years, we've moved across country.
[20:51] : >> Got happy feet.
[20:52] : >> Yep. To Texas, Colorado or California
[20:55] : are the three places that we have sort
[20:58] : of moved around.
[20:59] : >> If you wait long enough, you can see the
[21:01] : Dobson Ryan wagon train go by in this
[21:04] : [laughter] big circle.
[21:05] : >> So true. And along with those moves, I
[21:08] : have started new businesses. I am a
[21:10] : serial entrepreneur. I love creating
[21:14] : things that are new. So, I've always
[21:16] : been in that space of invention. And it
[21:19] : might have looked like I was reinventing
[21:21] : myself. But when I look back and really
[21:23] : explore the threads, there's always like
[21:26] : creativity is a throughine across my
[21:29] : entire life. Literature, learning,
[21:32] : growth, through lines across my life.
[21:34] : And every business that I started
[21:36] : matched the phase of life that I was in
[21:38] : and what I [clears throat] needed
[21:40] : including the current one helping people
[21:41] : in the second half of life because I'm
[21:43] : trying to help myself on that journey
[21:44] : too.
[21:44] : >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I go back and
[21:47] : I see a similar pattern or whether it
[21:50] : was uh you know endurance athletics or
[21:54] : creativity and writing and those types
[21:57] : of things always came forward.
[21:59] : >> Yeah.
[21:59] : >> Um
[22:00] : >> Yeah. since your cross country running
[22:02] : days and was that high school?
[22:04] : >> Yeah. And even before that, you know, it
[22:05] : was just a kid running around the
[22:07] : backyard. So,
[22:08] : >> yeah. [laughter] Right. So, running is a
[22:09] : throughine for you in a variety of
[22:11] : different ways.
[22:12] : >> We won't talk about what I was running
[22:14] : from, but
[22:14] : >> yeah. Well, that's a whole different
[22:16] : thing. So, you know, that was more of
[22:18] : the days when we drank our way through
[22:20] : everything. And I mean we have spent
[22:22] : certainly our fair share of numbing out,
[22:24] : avoiding,
[22:25] : not looking at, right? Which is the
[22:28] : opposite of what we say that we love and
[22:31] : now really focus more on is that growth
[22:34] : or I like the way Vicky said it that
[22:36] : curiosity and lifelong learning can look
[22:39] : like reinvention but they're not.
[22:42] : They're to me it's evolution perhaps is
[22:44] : a better word.
[22:45] : >> Absolutely. Absolutely.
[22:46] : >> Yeah. And you know, talking about the
[22:49] : difference a little bit between
[22:51] : reinvention and reclamation. So like
[22:53] : Brad just said, there's parts of myself
[22:56] : that I haven't gone back and reclaimed
[22:58] : yet.
[22:59] : >> Yeah.
[23:00] : >> Right.
[23:00] : >> Yeah. Yeah. I wrote reclamation is doing
[23:03] : the work to return to our, you know, our
[23:05] : natural our soul, ourselves. Um
[23:09] : >> and our joy, our delight, our curiosity,
[23:12] : our fun
[23:12] : >> those things that are innate. Um
[23:16] : and uh so I'm you you can tell we're
[23:21] : pushing hard on the reclamation part and
[23:23] : pushing away from the reinvention part.
[23:25] : >> Yeah. And but I think the reclamation is
[23:28] : just one piece [snorts] of it, right?
[23:29] : Because then there's also the evolution
[23:31] : and growth part of it.
[23:33] : >> Um this next one I think is a is a
[23:36] : really juicy one because it's one I know
[23:39] : has had a lot of impact especially on
[23:41] : you,
[23:42] : >> right? um in a more traditional career
[23:45] : of 30 years. Sure.
[23:47] : >> As a software engineer
[23:49] : >> and it's about how much of the identity
[23:53] : we both built in the first half of life.
[23:55] : So right in from birth to age 50 let's
[23:59] : say because we plan to live to 100 for
[24:01] : sure and comes from genuine choice and
[24:05] : how much comes from expectation or that
[24:08] : burden of responsibility?
[24:10] : >> Yeah. Um
[24:13] : it's sort of like
[24:15] : there's a path set with options and you
[24:17] : get to choose the options but maybe not
[24:19] : the path.
[24:20] : >> Yeah. [laughter]
[24:21] : >> Um or you know something along those
[24:22] : lines. Um, I wrote, you know, maybe
[24:25] : people born with innate self-confidence
[24:29] : uh that had no parents [laughter]
[24:31] : u maybe could arrive at at 50 or 60 uh
[24:35] : you know having chosen 100
[24:37] : >> unblenmished and having chosen 100% of
[24:39] : their path but I don't think that's too
[24:41] : many people I think and you know it
[24:44] : starts and this is the the point that uh
[24:47] : the yungian psychoanalyst is talking
[24:50] : about you know this starts the second
[24:52] : you come out of the womb because there's
[24:55] : your parents react to things and you
[24:57] : react to your parents and it's it's a
[25:00] : it's part of what shapes us and so
[25:03] : there's not a lot of um choice in that
[25:08] : >> and
[25:08] : >> yeah and but I was thinking about you
[25:11] : me right like feeling like you had to
[25:14] : stay in your job in your career you were
[25:16] : the one that was responsible for making
[25:19] : the money being the provider being the
[25:21] : dad right you know I think there was a
[25:23] : lot of
[25:24] : >> that's what I grew up with inherited
[25:26] : roles and identities that were innate or
[25:29] : natural to you.
[25:30] : >> Yeah. And and who knows who I would have
[25:32] : been without those things.
[25:35] : >> Um
[25:36] : >> well, they made you who you are. So
[25:38] : there's it's not wrong.
[25:39] : >> I don't necessarily disagree with them.
[25:41] : There's reasons why society ended up the
[25:44] : way it did. Um, some of them are wrong,
[25:46] : but they also do end up
[25:51] : um
[25:52] : shaping us.
[25:53] : >> But you could say the same thing about
[25:55] : middle school. I [laughter] That's the
[25:56] : second time I brought it up. You can
[25:58] : tell middle school wasn't a great time
[25:59] : for me. Um, but you know, those things
[26:02] : shape us, especially when you have a
[26:04] : >> for me it was high school.
[26:05] : >> When you have a a a sensitive psyche
[26:08] : like little Brad.
[26:10] : >> Um, so
[26:11] : >> yeah, and you don't have a lot of choice
[26:13] : about that. You're you're it changes
[26:16] : you.
[26:16] : >> Yeah. One of the things that we admire
[26:20] : about our kids and their generation and
[26:22] : they're 27 and holy cow almost 25
[26:25] : >> like we're getting old, our kids are
[26:27] : getting older is they do not feel
[26:31] : defined by these traditional roles. And
[26:34] : part of that is what we modeled. Part of
[26:36] : that is generational, that gender
[26:40] : flexibility, career flexibility. There's
[26:42] : a lot more fluidity and flow, a lot more
[26:46] : resistance to doing things just because
[26:48] : they've always been done that way. I
[26:50] : think, you know, as Gen Xers, we're that
[26:53] : in between generation of it's always
[26:55] : been done this way. Oh, but wait, you
[26:57] : can change and you can have it all and
[26:59] : do it all. Oh, but wait, and then
[27:01] : there's all this trauma that you've got
[27:02] : to make peace with. And so our
[27:05] : generation, right, is really this
[27:07] : sandwich generation of holding a lot of
[27:11] : the opportunity for change without maybe
[27:14] : feeling like we actually had the freedom
[27:15] : to change.
[27:17] : >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's really
[27:20] : true. Um I'm not sure if I have more to
[27:23] : add to that. I probably do, but I I'd
[27:24] : have to sit here for a minute being very
[27:26] : quiet.
[27:27] : >> Yeah. Um well, let's move on because
[27:30] : this is a um one that you've talked a
[27:33] : lot about. you may even have talked
[27:34] : about here on the the show in one of the
[27:36] : earlier episodes before is what happens
[27:40] : when a role that has defined you
[27:43] : disappears.
[27:45] : >> Yeah. And and this I use the term uh
[27:48] : rudderless floating
[27:51] : and and partially empty. Um those are
[27:53] : the the feelings that I had. Um,
[27:58] : I was uh I've said this before, I I
[28:01] : completed three iron man races and those
[28:05] : take a lot out of you. I did that over
[28:07] : the period of about uh six years and
[28:10] : postiron man and this happened with me
[28:12] : previously when I was um in marathon
[28:17] : shape and running the occasional
[28:18] : marathon is that the post feels
[28:22] : postpartum to a certain extent.
[28:23] : [laughter] Totally does. Um, and then we
[28:26] : had the same thing with with career for
[28:28] : me and and uh and then the exit of the
[28:31] : kids from from day-to-day life and yeah,
[28:35] : there's it just feels like uh
[28:38] : >> Yeah. And talk about how you felt when
[28:41] : you left your last job, your last
[28:43] : full-time job,
[28:44] : >> because I think people can really relate
[28:46] : to that that had more traditional long
[28:49] : careers like you did.
[28:50] : >> Yeah. I mean, I was I I spent 30 years
[28:54] : moving my way up uh focused on salary
[28:57] : and focused on how much vacation I had
[28:59] : and um I guess getting better at the
[29:02] : work that I was doing. Um,
[29:05] : and
[29:07] : I mean there's lots of people on the
[29:10] : call, I'm sure, who who had careers or
[29:12] : are in careers who've been going 8 to 5,
[29:16] : 9 to5, 5 days a week, you know, some
[29:19] : weekends, whatever it is. Um,
[29:22] : that it just that's everything. I mean,
[29:25] : you get home and you do whatever, but
[29:28] : it's it's such a huge part of your of
[29:31] : your life.
[29:32] : >> Yeah. Um, and then that's gone.
[29:34] : >> Energy, [laughter]
[29:34] : time, focus, creative expression,
[29:38] : everything gets wrapped up in that
[29:41] : >> confusion, curiosity, and grief. Yeah.
[29:44] : Yeah.
[29:45] : >> I don't know if you would have named it
[29:47] : as grief, but certainly some depression,
[29:50] : sadness.
[29:51] : >> Yeah. Well, and there's also this
[29:53] : there's a huge head check when uh I mean
[29:57] : and I'll freely admit I was driven by
[30:00] : income and that you know there's a
[30:03] : reason we work and it's so that that
[30:04] : paycheck shows up and
[30:06] : >> those golden handcuffs.
[30:07] : >> Yeah. And and uh not having that is a
[30:11] : it was interesting. Yes. You don't have
[30:13] : the money which you want but you also
[30:15] : don't have the drive. Mhm.
[30:18] : >> Um like take away that carrot and it
[30:22] : takes more now it takes more stick to
[30:24] : get Brad to do things. [laughter]
[30:26] : Uh yeah. So that was an interesting
[30:28] : transition as well.
[30:29] : >> Yeah. And I think when I So when I sold
[30:33] : my first business, which was a a
[30:34] : parenting magazine based in the Dallas,
[30:37] : Texas area, I did not expect to have the
[30:42] : grief hit me. And I let go of that
[30:45] : business. We let go of that business on
[30:47] : purpose with a lot of clarity and
[30:48] : intention. We knew it was time. I had
[30:51] : really outgrown it. Uh it needed fresh
[30:54] : new energy. It was time to let it go and
[30:57] : pass it on. And I did not expect the
[30:59] : loss of identity to hit me so hard.
[31:03] : Whereas since then I have been sort of
[31:06] : rolling into new things. um empty nest
[31:10] : when Connor left in particular did not
[31:14] : expect the grief to hit me so hard
[31:15] : because we could not wait for him to go.
[31:17] : He was not [laughter] fun his senior
[31:18] : year.
[31:19] : >> Remember this is going out into public.
[31:21] : >> Yeah. Yeah. It's nothing we haven't said
[31:23] : to him personally. So, you know, no
[31:26] : secrets. Um but you know that sense of
[31:30] : wow, what does life look like now with
[31:32] : all this space in our lives and our
[31:35] : homes, right? And I mean, we've enjoyed
[31:37] : our relationships with our adult
[31:39] : children as well, because now they're
[31:41] : out of college, like they're on their
[31:43] : way,
[31:44] : >> but there's this sense of when a role
[31:47] : ends versus when a role shifts or
[31:51] : changes, right?
[31:52] : >> We're not not parenting, but the
[31:55] : conversations and the relationships look
[31:57] : so different.
[31:58] : >> Oh, yeah. Much different thing. Much
[31:59] : much different thing.
[32:00] : >> Yeah, for sure.
[32:02] : And the next thing we want to talk about
[32:06] : is why is it so uncomfortable to be in
[32:09] : this space between roles and identities?
[32:12] : And speaking for myself, I am so I'm a
[32:15] : Capricorn. I have a PhD from Stanford.
[32:17] : I'm an academic, right? And even though
[32:20] : I'm very creative, I also need clarity
[32:24] : in my life. When I have clarity and
[32:26] : conviction, I can move, right? And when
[32:28] : I'm in that liinal space, that
[32:31] : undefined, I don't know who I am or I
[32:33] : don't know what's next, to me, it feels
[32:36] : so frustrating and I get extremely
[32:39] : impatient. And Brad will tell you,
[32:40] : patience is not one of my virtues in
[32:42] : pretty much any area of my life. And so
[32:46] : for me, that discomfort of not knowing
[32:50] : who I am or where to go feels like if I
[32:54] : don't figure this out, nothing else is
[32:56] : going to work, right? So I can tend to
[32:58] : catastrophize that as well.
[33:00] : >> Sure.
[33:01] : >> Yeah. You know, I think there
[33:05] : there's people that thrive in a liinal
[33:07] : space. Um, I'm not necessarily that
[33:10] : person, but you know, in terms of why
[33:13] : the time is so uncomfortable,
[33:16] : I wrote because short of a lot of
[33:18] : drinking and gambling and rabbousing,
[33:22] : we're unavoid unavoidably presented with
[33:25] : naked questions about who we are really.
[33:28] : And so, and this is I I don't profess to
[33:33] : be uh very deep into Buddhism, but I've
[33:36] : learned lots about it. And and sitting
[33:37] : with discomfort is is um part of what
[33:41] : you learn. And uh
[33:44] : h I could use a lot of that because once
[33:47] : again, those those
[33:50] : naked, forceful questions about who you
[33:53] : really are, um you're exposed to that.
[33:56] : And and once again, um it's easy to
[34:00] : think about, oh, I'm going to be goth
[34:02] : today or oh, I'm going to run away to
[34:04] : Spain and
[34:06] : um you know, do that. But to me, that's
[34:10] : the running away from those questions
[34:12] : and not sitting with the discomfort.
[34:14] : >> And it's interesting. I have two friends
[34:16] : in the last year that moved to Spain and
[34:18] : what I loved about it is they were
[34:20] : running towards not away from.
[34:22] : >> And I I should I should I I'm not
[34:24] : ragging on those people. Uh but just
[34:27] : noticing the energy with which we choose
[34:29] : to move, right? But yes, sitting with
[34:33] : discomfort is so hard. So Kristen, I
[34:35] : want to acknowledge what you said as
[34:37] : someone with um an adult child with
[34:40] : disabilities that there's no end in
[34:43] : sight to your caregiving role. Plus, I
[34:45] : imagine you were dealing either were or
[34:47] : are dealing with aging parents as well.
[34:50] : And so there's some grief there also for
[34:53] : yourselves, for your child that has to
[34:56] : be honored, right? That has to be felt
[35:00] : and can be challenging.
[35:02] : And I also want to um I'm looking for
[35:05] : who said it, but the gene I think maybe
[35:09] : about that shame over not being busy.
[35:12] : That one is huge because that's where
[35:15] : >> Yeah. Somebody pointed out the culture
[35:17] : of busyness.
[35:18] : >> Yeah. The culture of business. That's
[35:19] : what I came from.
[35:20] : >> And [laughter] to me, that's where the
[35:22] : culture of invention and reinvention
[35:25] : keeps us in in that hamster wheel of
[35:27] : always going, always moving. But just
[35:30] : like Brad was talking about discomfort
[35:32] : and sitting in the discomfort, growth
[35:35] : happens in the quiet spaces, in the
[35:38] : restful, thoughtful spaces, it happens
[35:40] : in the questions, right? It's not
[35:44] : necessarily something that we can busy
[35:46] : our way through. And often busyiness is
[35:50] : this false sense of self-worth that we
[35:53] : use to make ourselves feel better,
[35:55] : right? If I'm not doing something, then
[35:57] : I'm not worthy.
[35:59] : >> And I think it's um a cultural problem
[36:02] : that again I see changing with these
[36:04] : younger generations, too.
[36:06] : >> Sure.
[36:07] : >> What's next?
[36:09] : >> Uh I think we're on What have we each
[36:11] : brought back into our lives that isn't
[36:13] : actually new?
[36:14] : >> Oh, that's a great one. Yeah.
[36:17] : Wait, you wrote the same things I did.
[36:19] : Or not [laughter] quite.
[36:20] : >> Yeah.
[36:21] : >> Yeah. Just returning to uh
[36:26] : uh honestly nature, birding, writing, um
[36:30] : you know, things that uh
[36:31] : >> slowing down.
[36:33] : >> Yeah. Well, I don't Is that is that not
[36:35] : actually new? Um
[36:38] : >> slowing down.
[36:39] : Well, I I tend to think of, you know,
[36:42] : what what's missing that we had as as
[36:46] : innocent little kids.
[36:47] : >> Yeah. We we ran till we dropped
[36:50] : >> and then we we napped and slept,
[36:52] : >> right? Or we laid in the grass looking
[36:54] : at the sky, right? We
[36:57] : >> climbing trees and laying in grass.
[36:58] : That's true.
[36:59] : >> Yeah. So, it wasn't perpetual motion.
[37:01] : You It was like sprint rest, sprint,
[37:03] : rest, sprint, rest. But I think um for
[37:07] : me it was definitely over the last
[37:09] : decade the return to creativity that had
[37:11] : always been there. But there were so
[37:14] : many you know Bnee Brown calls them
[37:16] : creativity scars. I had so many scars
[37:19] : around that. It took so long to unravel
[37:22] : my relationship with creative
[37:24] : expression. And so that was a big one.
[37:26] : Like Brad said, nature. When we looked
[37:28] : at moving from California to Colorado,
[37:32] : that was the number one priority or one
[37:35] : of our top, you know, two to three
[37:36] : priorities. Being close to family is
[37:39] : always really important to us, but
[37:40] : access to nature is important as well.
[37:42] : Absolutely.
[37:43] : >> By the way, they got snow at Pikes Peak
[37:45] : yesterday. So, yeah, it's exciting. Um
[37:48] : so this idea of for me my spiritual
[37:51] : practice became more important paying
[37:54] : more intention to the season seasons and
[37:56] : rhythm of the moon. The other thing you
[37:58] : did when we moved here was like who
[38:00] : lived here before us right like paying
[38:03] : attention to where we live and feeling
[38:06] : more connected to the place that we live
[38:09] : rather than just going through the
[38:10] : motions or being disconnected from place
[38:13] : and community.
[38:14] : >> Yep. Yep. Yep.
[38:15] : >> Yeah. So I think that's important. And
[38:17] : it's like what are we that's that
[38:18] : reclamation part. What are we bringing
[38:20] : back? What are we bringing back? Yeah.
[38:23] : Swinging. We bring back.
[38:25] : >> Yeah. Somebody mentioned swinging and
[38:27] : that God that that just brings up so
[38:29] : many memories
[38:30] : >> who didn't get on a swing, a tire swing,
[38:32] : a swing swing, anything like that. Yeah.
[38:34] : >> Swimming. Like my brother and I were
[38:36] : talking about this like we had a aunt
[38:38] : and uncle with a lakehouse, you know, so
[38:40] : there was swimming. We went to the local
[38:42] : pool in the summers. Lot lots of
[38:44] : swimming. I don't remember the last time
[38:46] : I like went and played in a pool,
[38:48] : >> right?
[38:48] : >> Or the ocean or, you know, in the in the
[38:51] : water. So, I think that those are
[38:53] : important and in order to bring those
[38:55] : things back, there's usually some things
[38:57] : we have to let go of as well. You know,
[39:00] : for me, letting go of needing approval
[39:03] : from anyone else, including him. uh
[39:06] : letting go of some of my ambition
[39:09] : because for me ambition got tied up in
[39:11] : drive, busyiness like we've talked
[39:13] : about, perfectionism,
[39:16] : um stuff, right? Letting go of physical
[39:19] : stuff. I mean, you know, this uh is a
[39:21] : minuscule bookshelf to what we used to
[39:24] : carry around with us in terms of like
[39:27] : the literal weight of books, the
[39:29] : emotional and the physical weight of all
[39:32] : the books, college textbooks, right? you
[39:35] : know, so so many things. But I think
[39:37] : also doubt,
[39:39] : >> the need to prove myself to myself, like
[39:42] : I'm always harder, and I would say this
[39:44] : for you, too, that I'm always harder on
[39:47] : myself than anybody else.
[39:48] : >> Oh god. Oh man, I am so hard on myself.
[39:52] : >> Yeah. So hard.
[39:53] : >> Yeah. For me, um, and I agree with
[39:55] : something Nette said here. She mentioned
[39:57] : doing whatever I want to without
[39:59] : considering anyone else. And this is
[40:02] : it's a long struggle for me to let go of
[40:04] : what other people think. And I'm hard on
[40:07] : myself um because of that. You know, so
[40:10] : much of my life um comes from thinking
[40:14] : about what other people think or whether
[40:15] : I need validation or things like that.
[40:17] : And it's just it is what it is. Try and
[40:19] : get better at it. But and I'm [sighs]
[40:22] : I'm kind of getting to the point I I
[40:24] : don't it it feels like that old man
[40:26] : thing where you know like the the old
[40:28] : folks who don't care what you think when
[40:31] : they say something anymore. I I don't
[40:34] : know if I'll ever be that. But uh
[40:36] : >> no more to give.
[40:38] : >> Yeah. I I don't think that's a reason to
[40:40] : be mean or things like that, but uh I
[40:43] : can see myself getting closer to that
[40:45] : and sort of not giving a To me,
[40:47] : it's a boundaries issue, not a
[40:49] : >> It's hard right now issue. Yeah.
[40:52] : >> It's hard now though because of the way
[40:54] : um and I saw this brought up
[40:56] : >> divided culture.
[40:57] : >> I saw it brought up by a actor who was
[41:01] : it was one of the Harry Potter actors,
[41:03] : the older one of the older guy, the one
[41:06] : who had the crazy eye that with the
[41:08] : >> I can't Moody.
[41:09] : >> Yeah.
[41:10] : >> Professor Moody. that actor was talking
[41:12] : about how when he got on set um he just
[41:15] : didn't know what what he was allowed to
[41:17] : say because he was my generation that
[41:20] : said things this way and said things
[41:22] : that way and um and I it's been drilled
[41:25] : into me from my kids that uh you can't
[41:28] : say those things and so I'm trying to
[41:30] : find a balance there. It's it's tough.
[41:33] : [laughter]
[41:34] : >> Yeah. Yeah. It's and it's an important
[41:36] : conversation to have. In this book I was
[41:38] : listening to this morning. and she was
[41:40] : talking about, you know, the importance
[41:41] : of kindness, but kindness without
[41:43] : self-sacrifice, right? It was a chapter
[41:46] : on people pleasing, right? And feeling
[41:48] : like we have to to always be agreeable.
[41:52] : And it's something that women in
[41:53] : particular struggle with, right? And
[41:56] : that sense of, well, I have to be nice,
[42:00] : but nice doesn't mean sacrificing
[42:02] : ourselves. It means being firm and kind,
[42:05] : right? Being firm and kind at the same
[42:07] : time.
[42:07] : >> Sure. Um, let's talk about success now.
[42:12] : What does success look like now? I
[42:14] : skipped ahead to number 11.
[42:16] : >> 11.
[42:16] : >> Yeah. So, because otherwise we'll talk
[42:18] : all day. So, but what does success now
[42:20] : look like compared with when you were 30
[42:24] : or 40?
[42:26] : >> Um, I think about this a lot because
[42:31] : um it's sort of a scope of control thing
[42:35] : for me. So success in my career Brad's
[42:38] : success was bringing home a paycheck and
[42:41] : having vacation and being able to pay
[42:43] : for the things that we wanted to do. I
[42:44] : mean that's that's why we have a career
[42:46] : and why we spend so much time working
[42:49] : for someone else. Um now when I think
[42:53] : about it it's like what can I do? What
[42:55] : impact can I have? Um it's so easy to
[42:59] : get caught up in the news every second
[43:03] : and get caught up in things that are not
[43:06] : within our scope of control. And so the
[43:09] : question I have to myself is well what
[43:11] : you know what can I add to this world? I
[43:16] : spent 30 years working on telecom
[43:18] : switches and semiconductor fabrication
[43:20] : equipment. It's not really like I felt
[43:23] : like I had a big impact. I wasn't a
[43:25] : nurse or a you know a hospice worker or
[43:29] : a a preacher. And so not that I'm going
[43:34] : to become a preacher, but what you know
[43:36] : what impact can I have? Can I write and
[43:39] : have impact? That's kind of the best I
[43:41] : can do. But yeah, that's kind of where
[43:44] : success is for me.
[43:45] : >> Yeah. So for me it's that idea of um
[43:48] : creating a life that has meaning and
[43:52] : where I'm making a contribution and a
[43:54] : change and Brad has talked about how our
[43:58] : business is very much you know my dream
[44:01] : my vision but he's the backbone right of
[44:04] : that right and the the structure
[44:06] : underneath everything and I think that
[44:09] : we have built something with the
[44:10] : sisterhood of wisdom and wonder and our
[44:13] : other programs that is meaningful and
[44:16] : has a contribution. Yeah. Not just from
[44:18] : the perspective of it helps us pay the
[44:21] : bills or it helps, you know, women feel
[44:24] : better about themselves or discover
[44:26] : themselves, but because I feel enriched.
[44:29] : >> Yeah.
[44:30] : >> And enlivened and
[44:33] : fulfilled when I show up at these
[44:36] : experiences. Like it's a the reciprocity
[44:39] : of it was something that was often
[44:40] : missing. And I think the only other time
[44:44] : career-wise I felt that my first job out
[44:46] : of grad school was teaching at a private
[44:48] : high school for troubled teens. And
[44:52] : I really felt that same way where there
[44:56] : was this reciprocity of learning and
[44:58] : growth
[44:59] : >> that happened um in that particular job
[45:02] : and I feel that now. So for me that sort
[45:05] : of reciprocity feels so important that
[45:09] : you know it's not about me right it is
[45:11] : it is about community and belonging and
[45:14] : those things for me feel like success
[45:17] : like I've made a difference in someone's
[45:19] : lives but I al also open myself up to
[45:22] : receiving the lessons and the gifts from
[45:25] : my community as well.
[45:26] : >> Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. Very
[45:28] : good.
[45:28] : >> Does that make sense? Yeah. Yep. Yeah.
[45:30] : Um, what part of you has become stronger
[45:34] : with age rather than diminished? It's a
[45:37] : great question.
[45:39] : >> Um,
[45:41] : I kind of I hedged a little bit on this,
[45:44] : but has become stronger. Um, I I wrote
[45:48] : down and then pencled out controlling my
[45:50] : emotions and I said understanding my
[45:51] : emotions.
[45:52] : >> Yeah.
[45:52] : >> Uh, not controlling them necessarily.
[45:55] : And you know, at at uh how old am I? 58.
[45:58] : I'm maybe finally getting a handle on uh
[46:02] : on understanding my emotions and not
[46:04] : being not letting them get as deep as
[46:06] : they can be. Um
[46:10] : creative thought I was a pretty strong
[46:12] : programmer. I could I could do some some
[46:15] : decent stuff um both with problem
[46:19] : solving and creating new stuff. But I
[46:22] : think the writing and the reading
[46:24] : non-fiction has um
[46:28] : given me an opportunity to stretch my
[46:30] : brain a little bit and and and sort of
[46:32] : synthesize ideas from different domains.
[46:35] : And so I kind of feel like I'm I'm
[46:37] : growing a little bit there or growing
[46:39] : stronger. Um and then yeah, I am slowly
[46:43] : getting past what others think.
[46:46] : [laughter]
[46:46] : >> Yeah.
[46:47] : >> So I'll say I'm getting stronger at
[46:49] : that. But
[46:50] : >> I love it. And Nanette, you know, I like
[46:52] : your question. I have no idea. Do I even
[46:54] : want success? So for me, it's redefining
[46:57] : what success means to me. That was so
[47:01] : helpful, right? Where seeing success
[47:04] : less as a goal I'm trying to achieve
[47:07] : than a way I choose to live my life,
[47:09] : right? From who I am with growth, right?
[47:12] : And with again that contribution,
[47:15] : meaning and reciprocity, right? I think
[47:17] : um inside the sisterhood in one of our
[47:19] : elder circle calls, we were talking
[47:21] : about finding community and there was
[47:23] : this just deep desire for reciprocal
[47:27] : relationships, this give and take,
[47:30] : right? Where so much of life can feel so
[47:32] : one way or shallow and um if you know me
[47:36] : at all, I just don't do shallow.
[47:38] : >> Yeah. [laughter]
[47:38] : >> Right.
[47:40] : >> Yeah. I think as we get older, there's
[47:42] : less uh less time for that.
[47:44] : >> Yeah. So let's talk a little bit for our
[47:47] : last thoughts here about the role of
[47:50] : creativity at this stage of life because
[47:53] : I think it's something that's become not
[47:56] : just important in our our work but in
[47:59] : our own personal lives as well.
[48:02] : >> Yeah. And so I mean some of that comes
[48:05] : back to the impact um part of things
[48:07] : where I'm able to write and and
[48:10] : communicate my thoughts and perhaps put
[48:13] : something out in the world that that has
[48:15] : an impact. Um I feel like things like
[48:18] : this show are are creative to creative
[48:21] : outlets. Um
[48:24] : it's a container that we get to talk
[48:25] : about um different things and put put
[48:28] : forth uh hopefully useful information.
[48:31] : Um,
[48:32] : >> but there's the playfulness of it, too.
[48:34] : Your music.
[48:35] : >> Yeah. And I I kind of wrote those as as
[48:37] : as therapeutic, you know. I I
[48:40] : >> I code. I'm a programmer. I code for
[48:44] : fun. Um, so those types of things are
[48:48] : like I was never a performer with music,
[48:50] : but I I play music just for fun. Um,
[48:54] : it's the same is true with coding. Um,
[48:58] : and creativity. I I finally I wrote also
[49:03] : that it allows me agility in different
[49:05] : domains. So that was that strength I was
[49:07] : talking about where I feel like um for
[49:10] : me creativity once again is the
[49:14] : ability to see different parts of the
[49:17] : world and put together how they relate
[49:20] : >> which is the definition of creativity
[49:22] : actually is taking
[49:25] : ideas and putting them together in new
[49:27] : ways.
[49:27] : >> Right. Right. Right. And you know,
[49:29] : that's something I I feel like my brain
[49:31] : is decent at, but I don't know that I
[49:33] : have
[49:33] : >> I don't have anything like the creative
[49:35] : practice that you do.
[49:38] : >> Music, right?
[49:39] : >> Sort of more ad hoc than
[49:40] : >> Yeah. Yours is Yeah. [laughter] less
[49:42] : consistent for sure.
[49:44] : >> So for me, the time that I spend in
[49:47] : creative play is essential to my
[49:50] : thriving at this stage of my life and my
[49:53] : ongoing self-discovery.
[49:55] : And that can look a lot of different
[49:57] : ways. It can look like writing,
[49:58] : paintings, stitching, making dolls. Like
[50:01] : I have a million people.
[50:02] : >> If you could see this is like 1,200
[50:06] : square feet of art stuff.
[50:08] : >> Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. It's not
[50:10] : all for me though, you know. It's a lot
[50:12] : of it's for teaching classes and things.
[50:14] : But yes, I have filled a basement with
[50:15] : my own art, which is pretty amazing.
[50:20] : I could not have imagined that at
[50:22] : earlier stages of my life. But I want to
[50:25] : say it's not just about creativity. It's
[50:28] : about the energy of play that I bring to
[50:29] : it. Someone else mentioned play earlier
[50:32] : in the chat. Um, playing without goals,
[50:35] : Kathleen.
[50:36] : Right. And what does it look like when
[50:39] : we detach from outcomes? And it's like
[50:42] : Brad talking about with playing music,
[50:45] : you know, he's not sitting down to play
[50:47] : a song. He's sitting down to make music.
[50:50] : I'm sitting down to play with all kinds
[50:54] : of things, right? It's different every
[50:56] : single day. But it's the energy that I
[51:00] : bring to it that for me is most
[51:02] : meaningful and leads right back to
[51:05] : success. Right? 30 years ago, I wouldn't
[51:08] : have looked at time for play as an
[51:11] : element of success. But now I know if
[51:14] : I'm not making time for play, I'm not
[51:17] : being successful, right? I'm not as
[51:19] : happy. If I'm away from the studio too
[51:21] : long, I get a little grumpy. I don't
[51:23] : travel without a whole box of art
[51:25] : supplies of some kind, you know. So,
[51:28] : it's become an essential element of my
[51:32] : own curiosity and expression at this
[51:35] : stage of life,
[51:36] : >> right? Yeah. And I don't know um what
[51:39] : other ways you could do that. I mean,
[51:42] : maybe focusing on a spiritual practice
[51:45] : um
[51:45] : >> or pickle ball,
[51:47] : >> right? Like it's different for
[51:48] : everybody. Yes, you're right.
[51:50] : >> You know, I think about um one of my
[51:52] : good friends in California. She has just
[51:55] : fallen in love with the whole experience
[51:57] : and it's exercise, right, for her. So,
[52:00] : it's increasing vitality, but it's also
[52:02] : very playful and joyful and community.
[52:05] : It's about belonging as well.
[52:07] : >> Yeah, I could I could probably get back
[52:09] : to that with distance running.
[52:10] : [laughter]
[52:12] : >> Yes. You've always loved your solo
[52:14] : athletic activities. the longer the
[52:16] : longer the better. But I think it's
[52:18] : finding and it doesn't have to be about
[52:20] : creative expression. It just happens to
[52:22] : be what I'm passionate about. But I
[52:24] : think it's about finding that thing that
[52:26] : creates spaciousness in our lives that
[52:29] : lights us up. For some people, it's
[52:31] : cooking, gardening, interior design,
[52:33] : right? You know,
[52:34] : >> a lot of creativity and all of those
[52:36] : things.
[52:36] : >> All of those things. Like Brad said,
[52:38] : coding. He'll spend a whole Saturday
[52:40] : staring at the computer full of code.
[52:42] : And I'm like, "Okay, honey, have fun.
[52:44] : I'll be in the [laughter] studio. So,
[52:46] : let's talk about where we're going next.
[52:49] : >> Yeah. And
[52:50] : >> and we don't have a date for next month
[52:52] : because of travel.
[52:54] : >> That's [clears throat] true. That's
[52:54] : true. Oh, you're talking about this the
[52:56] : last question.
[52:56] : >> Next topic. Um, no. I think we're kind
[52:59] : of at the top of the hour. Let's talk
[53:00] : about our next topic.
[53:01] : >> Next topic is going to be about health
[53:04] : and it's uh it's
[53:08] : something that I'm good at and bad at at
[53:11] : the same time.
[53:12] : >> [laughter]
[53:12] : >> Uh that might be true for lots of folks,
[53:14] : but um there's just so much to um
[53:21] : I I guess it's just everything. I mean,
[53:23] : it's it's sounds trit. They people say
[53:26] : your health is if you don't have your
[53:28] : health, you don't have anything, but it
[53:29] : really is true. And and you notice it
[53:32] : more as you get older. Um, that said,
[53:36] : uh, I think it doesn't matter and and
[53:39] : I'll show this in our next episode. It
[53:42] : doesn't matter how old you are.
[53:44] : >> You can get healthier, you can get
[53:45] : stronger, you can get fitter.
[53:47] : >> Um, and I it's something that I'm
[53:50] : passionate about. So,
[53:51] : >> yeah, you had a Substack for a while
[53:53] : called Strong 99. And it's this idea of
[53:55] : how do we thrive longer, not survive
[53:58] : longer, because we are living longer,
[54:01] : >> right,
[54:01] : >> as a species on the planet, but how do
[54:04] : we maintain vitality is my favorite word
[54:08] : for it, you know, as long as possible.
[54:11] : >> And never feeling like it's too late or
[54:14] : time is running out. Themes that come up
[54:16] : in our sisterhood often, right?
[54:18] : >> And it can be fun and you can have
[54:20] : creativity in it and all of those
[54:21] : things, too. So,
[54:22] : >> yeah, totally. Totally. But without our
[54:25] : health, we have nothing. Right. Everyone
[54:27] : has heard that saying. And so we'll have
[54:31] : some pretty honest shares about all the
[54:33] : ways that we suck at it. That's right.
[54:34] : >> Um as as well as the ways we're working
[54:37] : to get better at that. And I get curious
[54:39] : about how can I make it more playful and
[54:42] : more creative. Right. Because if it's
[54:44] : fun and creative, then I'm way more
[54:46] : likely to do it.
[54:47] : >> Good stuff. We're going to have you
[54:48] : painting on the rowing machine.
[54:49] : >> Painting on the row. Paint the rowing
[54:51] : machine. I can do that.
[54:53] : Yeah, that would be pretty interesting.
[54:55] : Yes. [laughter]
[54:57] : [gasps]
[54:57] : >> All right, guys.
[54:58] : >> Thank you so much for joining us today.
[55:00] : This was fun.
[55:01] : >> Hopefully, you enjoyed and got a few
[55:04] : insights or affirmations about why you
[55:07] : do not need to reinvent yourself, right?
[55:10] : You simply need to be yourself.
[55:13] : >> Link, like the video and subscribe. We
[55:16] : love you.
[55:17] : >> Yeah. Thanks everybody for joining us.
[55:18] : We'll see you soon. and bite.